00:10LinuxDonaldLinDon|afk
00:14barra_libraryheya Domtron & tZee
00:15tZeehola
00:15Bretzelhey tZee
00:16LinDon|afkLinuxDonald
00:22BretzeltZee: I noticed that we are now using actors.py instead of hero.py for the approachBox, approachDoor etc
00:22tZee14*
00:22Die letzte Meldung wiederholte sich 1 mal.
00:22tZeewtf
00:22tZeesec
00:22tZeehow annoying
00:22tZee:D
00:22tZeenumlock on my notebook works different than i thought
00:23Bretzel:)\
00:23Bretzelanyway
00:23Bretzelmy question was where are we declaring the player a PlayerCharacter from actors.py
00:24Bretzelbecause we need to pass the engine argument through there, right now it just defaults to None
00:25tZeein the map_objects.xml the player character is defined
00:26Bretzelok thanks
00:34Bretzelbut if its in an xml file how can i pass an engine argument through?
00:35shevyyo barra_library
00:35shevyhey tZee what parpg-specific code would you recommend for a python newb
00:36tZeedo you have any programming experience, shevy?
00:36tZeebretzel: what arugment do you want to pass?
00:36tZeewhat do you want to do?
00:36BretzeltZee: I have to pass an engine instance through
00:37Bretzelscripts.engine.Engine that is
00:37shevyyeah tZee 5 years of heavy ruby usage
00:38shevyi am gonna try to avoid bad practises from the beginning :D
00:38tZeewhat do you want to do, bretzel?
00:39BretzelIf you look in actors.py, it already has an engine argument, but it defaults to None
00:39BretzelI need to access a function that is in world.py
00:39Bretzeland the easiest way to do that is through engine.py
00:39Bretzelwell the easiest way in this case
00:40tZeeshevy: i recommend you to skip through http://diveintopython.org/toc/index.html, at least like the first 4 chapters.. i did that and it's really nice to understand. then have a look at the new object classes (in the folder scripts/object). don't look to closely at world.py or engine.py .. they're.. messy :D
00:40Bretzelyeah world.py and engine.py need to be cleaned up
00:40BretzelXD
00:40tZeerewritten*
00:40tZee:X
00:40shevyok
00:41tZeethere is so much mess there than only imposes restrictions that force us to create workarounds
00:41tZeehm bretzel.. that's a similar problem to what i described in the forum
00:41tZeeabout the loading/saving
00:41Bretzelah didn't see that thread
00:41tZeeyou can access the PC at any time with self.gameState.PC, self = engine.py
00:41tZeethis needs to be sorted out
00:42KingstonRead error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
00:42Bretzelbut gameState.PC is actually a hero.Hero instance
00:42tZeegod, i'm going crazy with this loading stuff... :D
00:42tZeeno
00:42tZeewhen did you last update?
00:42shevyhehe
00:43Bretzeljust now
00:43tZeehm
00:43tZeeshould be the new one already
00:43Nihathraelniha_off
00:44Bretzelnevermind I was wrong it is a PlayerCharacter
00:44tZee:)
00:44tZeeideally we would load a map and it would create the FIFE actors and instances
00:45tZeethen we would plug in our game data
00:46tZeesomething like that.. but right now.. the loading is so decentralized.. the map is still not in a separate class and the loading has no "strategy"
00:46Memphiss (n=Jeha@e178207000.adsl.alicedsl.de) left irc:
00:47Bretzelyeah
00:48tZeehm
00:49tZeeok, that's it, i'm not going to wait any longer for responses from the others.. like this we move forward as fast as a turtle :X i'm going to change the object loader now
00:49shevy:)
00:51Bretzel:) ok
00:51Bretzelanyway do you want me to just commit the changes I have tZee, and see what you can do with it?
00:51tZeewhat do they change? :D
00:51Bretzelit's ready to be committed except for the callback from world.py
00:52Bretzelit fixes opening and examining from the context menu
00:53tZeeyeah, sure :)
00:53Bretzelok
00:53tZeehm
00:54tZeenow that i look at the loader there is some weird code there :O
00:54Bretzel:p
00:54Bretzelalright its committed
00:54tZee:)
00:54tZeeyay, more merging, hehe
00:54tZee:D:D
00:54CIA-65parpg: bretzel_parpg * r197 /trunk/PARPG/scripts/ (world.py objects/actors.py): Fixed examining and opening objects
00:55Bretzelhehe yeah merging's not much fun
00:55Bretzelat least its not a major change
00:59Domtronis there a todo list on the wiki?
00:59Bretzelnot an up to date one
00:59tZeethere are quite current trac items
01:00tZeerecent*
01:04Domtronwhere do I go to get trac
01:04tZeeheh sec
01:04tZeeit's a bit hidden in the wiki :D
01:05UH-Guard2Title: PARPG project tracker - Trac (at parpg-trac.cvsdude.com)
01:11Bretzelim gonna go get some dinner
01:11Bretzeli'll be back in an hour or so
01:11Bretzelhope you make some progress tZee!
01:11BretzelBretzel_away
01:11tZeeobject loader changed, now i'll update and do some merging
01:12tZeedon't want to do too big changes at once now.. with this mess i'll rather commit often :D
01:12tZeeespecially since i wont be online over the weekend, as ususal ;)
01:12tZee:)
01:14tZeelol bretzel
01:14tZeei think you committed a typo :)
01:15tZeeah, it was within a comment area, so it didn't matter
01:15tZeewasn't clear from looking at trac's diff display :)
01:17tZeeheh
01:17tZeethat's nice
01:17tZeeyour new code works without any merging work
01:17tZee<3
01:17tZeei love the examine window
01:20CIA-65parpg: tZee_parpg * r198 /trunk/PARPG/scripts/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
01:20CIA-65parpg: * changed objectLoader to do only what it is supposed to do
01:20CIA-65parpg: * thus the engine can now add FIFE related references in an intermediate step to the object creation
01:20CIA-65parpg: * which happens in the factory method, which is now located in scripts/objects/__init__
01:20CIA-65parpg: * disregard the save/load mess for now
01:20CIA-65parpg: * deleted some obsolete stuff
01:22LinuxDonaldLinDon|afk
01:32tZeehm
01:32tZeeso there was a map class already
01:32tZeejust with no code and no use, except sending fife.MapChangeListener calls into nowhere..
01:32tZeevery good!!
01:34tZeewell, it's too late here to start extracting the map class now :/
01:34tZeeand i can't really think straight anymore :D
01:35tZeeif anyone feels like doing it: go ahead :D
01:35tZeeotherwise i'll do it next week i guess :X
01:35tZeegood night :)
01:35tZee (n=nonono@cust.dyn.83-173-254-25.cybernet.ch) left irc:
01:46Bretzel_awayBretzel
01:49intripoonNo route to host
01:57barra_librarysorry, forgot to set my status :-/ good night lads!
01:57barra_librarybarraAway
02:31LinDon|afkLinuxDonald
02:32LinuxDonaldLinDon|afk
03:14Wr4i7h (n=abc@89-180-85-83.net.novis.pt) left irc:
04:13Bretzel"Leaving"
04:16CIA-65parpg: bretzel_parpg * r199 /trunk/PARPG/scripts/ (popups.py items.py objects/actors.py engine.py):
04:16CIA-65parpg: The descriptions now fully work and the open box window now deals with items. At some point we will
04:16CIA-65parpg: probably want to have a better way of dealing with items than like in items.py where there is one
04:16CIA-65parpg: dictionary containing everything.
04:26CIA-65parpg: bretzel_parpg * r200 /trunk/PARPG/scripts/items.py: Added the PARPG header/license agreement
05:20Gary_Franklin"Leaving"
06:26vtchill_ (n=jesse@pool-96-231-124-125.washdc.east.verizon.net) left irc:
06:39DomtronRead error: 110 (Connection timed out)
08:07NineOfHeartsRead error: 110 (Connection timed out)
08:44barraAwaybarra_library
09:11Meinmartini"Leaving"
09:12Memphiss (n=Jeha@e178192172.adsl.alicedsl.de) left irc:
09:14niha_offNihathrael
09:15barra_librarygood morning Nihathrael
09:18Nihathraelmorning barra_library
09:26Domtron_lagRead error: 110 (Connection timed out)
10:28barra_library"Verlassend"
10:52Gaspard_ (n=Gaspard@231.79.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee) left irc:
11:22Nihathraelniha_off
12:02niha_offNihathrael
13:09CIA-65FIFE: nihathrael * r2953 /trunk/SConstruct: * Small fix to make scons work in a fakeroot environment on ArchLinux. If this causes breakage please contact me.
13:32Gaspard_"Bye all !"
13:51Nihathraelniha_off
14:06barra_libraryhola!
14:27NineOfHeartsBonjour barra_library!
14:27barra_libraryheya NineOfHearts!
14:27NineOfHeartsHow is your morning treating you?
14:27barra_libraryI've added three topic proposal to the meeting article at the wiki:
14:27UH-Guard2Title: Meeting:2009/07/10 - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
14:28barra_librarygood, just returned from having meal, now sitting in the library and preparing myself for the meeting
14:28barra_libraryskimming through the different proposals
14:28NineOfHeartsThank you kindly, I think this may answer the questions I was going to ask.
14:29NineOfHeartsAnd you think the meeting may last for two hours?
14:30barra_librarynot sure about that, we shouldn't try to exceed 90 minutes as a rule of thumb
14:30barra_librarymeetings often get rather tiring after that
14:31NineOfHeartsI agree entirely.
14:31barra_libraryso it's pretty likely that we won't agree on everything right away, but we can hopefully agree upon the next steps in the department and come up with tasks that we should tackle next
14:33barra_libraryhi vtchill_
14:33vtchill_hey barra_library
14:33NineOfHeartsDo you know if Matney will be joining us today?
14:34NineOfHeartsI'm pretty sure he is since in my last e-mail he was telling me about this meeting but I haven't spoken to him for the past two days.
14:34NineOfHeartsSo, I was just wondering if you had heard from him more recently.
14:41barra_libraryI think both matney and zenbitz will try to be around NineOfHearts
14:41barra_libraryI sent them a meeting reminder via email yesterday and they both replied to it
14:41barra_libraryhola dauerflucher
14:41dauerfluchermoin barra_library
14:51shevyhi
14:52barra_libraryhi shevy
14:53NineOfHeartsbarra_library, perfect, that's what I wanted to hear.
14:53NineOfHearts^.^
15:01vtchill_ (n=jesse@pool-96-231-124-125.washdc.east.verizon.net) left irc:
15:21dauerflucher"Leaving."
15:51Wr4i7h (n=abc@89-180-85-83.net.novis.pt) left irc:
16:05barra_libraryhmm just skimmed through all proposed storylines NineOfHearts
16:05barra_libraryI assume that your storyline would just play in the South East corner of the map? http://wiki.parpg.net/Image:Parpg_map.png
16:05UH-Guard2Title: Image:Parpg map.png - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
16:24EiMiARhey guys, does anybody of you know a good dedicated server to host WoW private games?
16:24barra_libraryactually no :-p
16:31prockRemote closed the connection
16:31Prock_Prock
16:36barra_libraryhola Prock
16:38Prockhi barra
16:39Prockhow are things going over there?
16:40barra_librarygood, just preparing myself for the meeting today
16:40barra_librarywriting department meeting, that is
16:41Prockahh yes
16:41Prockwhen is that happening?
16:41shevyhey Prock
16:41Prockhi shevy
16:48niha_offNihathrael
16:54barra_libraryin about an hour Prock
16:57Nihathraelbarra_library: ping
16:57barra_librarypong Nihathrael
16:57barra_libraryand heya GarmGarf
16:57Nihathraeldid you try to compile the engine with my newest change on windows?
17:00GarmGarfI'm presumbing this game is set in the future (is it?) and I'm presumbing that this game's history is paranted off Earth's real history, but when does it branch off? An alternative set of events to WW2 or does it branch off in our real future?
17:00barra_libraryjust trying to do so Nihathrael
17:01Nihathraelthanks
17:01barra_libraryworked fine for me Nihathrael, I'll run scons -c and try again to make sure that things are really working as intended
17:01barra_libraryjust spotted that I was mentioned in the UH credits Nihathrael! thanks a bunch
17:02barra_librarythat's actually a good question GarmGarf
17:02barra_librarywhat I know is that WWIII happened in the late 1980's but I'm not sure at which point our game's history branches from the real history
17:03Bretzelhello
17:03barra_librarythe setting draft does not really cover the topic GarmGarf, good point
17:03barra_libraryheya Bretzel!
17:03UH-Guard2Title: Draft:Setting - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
17:04barra_librarynice work with the examine menu Bretzel, looks good to me
17:04Bretzelawesome thanks
17:04barra_libraryI'll add the point to the list of questions / topics to discuss GarmGarf
17:05GarmGarfok cool
17:06barra_libraryfeel free to add / reword: http://wiki.parpg.net/Meeting:2009/07/10#Alternative_history
17:06UH-Guard2Title: Meeting:2009/07/10 - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
17:06GarmGarfyou know the way that nukes apparnelty dont cause long term radiation? what happens if the nukes set off all the nuclear plants to explode?
17:07GarmGarflike if I was gonna nuke a country I'd target their nuclur plants so they explode too and so they would have less power to retaliate
17:07Bretzelhey Matney
17:07GarmGarfheyp
17:07barra_librarynot sure if that's realistic GarmGarf
17:07MatneyHey. :)
17:07barra_libraryI know little about why the nukes were actually fired
17:08barra_libraryAFAIR it was discussed that you could try to reveal why history happened the way it did
17:08GarmGarfis it decided how the world comes into this state?
17:08shevyperhaps there was a conventional war which increased more and more
17:08GarmGarfoh so like the history isn't well known to the people?
17:08barra_librarythe only notes that I could find on the topic: http://wiki.parpg.net/Draft:Setting#War
17:08UH-Guard2Title: Draft:Setting - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
17:08barra_libraryheya Matney!
17:08barra_librarythat was at least one proposal
17:09barra_librarycould be some kind of nuke detection gone wrong scenario
17:10barra_libraryyou know the case of a false positive when it comes to nuclear attack detection systems, somebody pressed the retaliate button as the system indicated that nukes were actually fired and approach the US or UdSSR
17:10barra_librarybut there's a topic at the forums about it, let me try to dig it up
17:11MatneyWriters meeting in like 45 minutes, right?
17:11MatneyOr am I late?
17:11UH-Guard2Title: Synopsis for WW3 (at forums.parpg.net)
17:11GarmGarfyou know the way that there was a hotline made in the cold war between the USA and Russia (so that they could discuss the situation instead of blowing eachother up), well I guess one idea would be that in this game's history that hotline was never set up (this idea is kind of meh tbh).
17:11barra_librarynope Matney :-) should start in about 50 minutes
17:11barra_libraryaccording to my clock
17:12GarmGarfyeah I guess just some sort of justification is required
17:12MatneyCool. I'll probably be fairly quiet 'til then, I've got to get a Policies and Procedures document written up at work.
17:12barra_libraryI'm open to all kind of suggestions :-) so far nothing is set in stone concerning this topic, at least nothing is wikified
17:12MatneyOn the plus side, it took me two days, but davematney.com is the first thing that comes up when you google Dave Matney. :)
17:12barra_librarywhat basically means nothing set in stone :-)
17:12barra_libraryheya GreyGhost
17:12barra_libraryalrighty Matney
17:12GreyGhosthey barra_library
17:13barra_libraryfor me it's your facebook page Matney
17:13GarmGarfoh, will there be any children in the game? Some games dont include children so the player cant kill inocent children (e.g: the GTA games dont have children)
17:13barra_librarybut I'm using the German google website
17:13barra_libraryyep, there will be children
17:13GarmGarfcan the player hurt whoever they want like in arcnaum and fallout?
17:13barra_libraryand the consensus was that there shouldn't be invincible characters
17:14barra_libraryyep, at least that's my proposal
17:14MatneyDamn. I've changed every link to any other websites I've ever had on the internet (I logged into forum accounts I haven't used in years!) Guess I need to blog more, and self-link.
17:14barra_libraryI really hated the system of invincible important NPCs in the Elder Scrolls series
17:14barra_libraryif you want to screw up a quest by killing the quest giver, it should be possible and it should have consequences beyond not being able to do the quest
17:14GarmGarfthats one of the things I personly liked about arcnaum/fallout (non-invincible NPCs), however, we do have to acknowlege that if children are in the game the player could kill them
17:15SindwillerRead error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
17:15barra_libraryyep, I personally don't mind that as long as the game does not actually promote it in a way by rewarding it
17:15barra_libraryat least not rewarding without consequences
17:15barra_libraryI liked the childkiller reputation idea in Fallout
17:16barra_librarynot sure how the others feel about the topic though, just expressing my personal opinion
17:18barra_librarybut once we've agreed about these kind of aspects, they should be wikified
17:18barra_librarythat will make the design process easier in the long run as we have an idea what ideas generally have been accepted and are "canon" non, so new proposals should be in sync with them
17:19barra_librarymeaning: you have an idea what can be done and what can't be done in the game world
17:19barra_librarythat's actually quite important when it comes to designing quests and NPCs later
17:19barra_library"canon" now >> "canon" now
17:20barra_libraryhow do you feel about it NineOfHearts ?
17:20barra_libraryAFAIR you couldn't kill children in Fallout 3, could you?
17:20barra_libraryhmm and Arcanum was actually lacking children, wasn't it GarmGarf ?
17:21barra_librarythe childkilling example is actually a borderline case between setting and game mechanics, not sure which department is primarily responsible for it
17:23Zenbitzgood morning
17:25Prockmorning
17:26Bretzelmorning zenbitz
17:26Zenbitzquiet
17:29barra_libraryheya Zenbitz
17:30barra_libraryyour thoughts on childkilling Zenbitz ?
17:30NineOfHeartsPardon me for my absence, I'll answer these questions asap.
17:30NineOfHeartsbarra_library, as of right now we are planning for the setting to take place in the south-eastern part of the map.
17:30barra_libraryread: should childkilling be possible in PARPG?
17:30Zenbitznever before 9 in the morning
17:30Zenbitzoh in the game....
17:31barra_libraryhehe, I knew that you would say that :-p
17:31NineOfHeartsGarmGarf, the game is set in the future and the atlernative history starts in the 1980's. Exactly which date is still to be determined.
17:31ZenbitzI suppose it's OK; I mean FO got away with it
17:32Zenbitzalthough I guess not in european versions?
17:32Zenbitzmaybe we should have some bad ass kids who can kill YOU
17:32Zenbitzwould that be more fair?
17:32CIA-65parpg: bretzel_parpg * r201 /trunk/PARPG/scripts/ (popups.py world.py): Fixed some stuff with opening boxes
17:32barra_libraryyep, they took out childs in the UK and German releases
17:33barra_libraryhmm I wouldn't mind a child gang that tries to attack you :-)
17:33barra_librarydamn, I always miss the important the commits
17:33Bretzelhehe
17:34GarmGarfyeah I cant recall any children present in Arcanaum
17:34ZenbitzI think if we have kids in the game, they should susceptable to death
17:34barra_libraryhmm that was actually one point I prefered in Fallout
17:34GarmGarfyeah it wouldn't work with only the children being imune
17:34ZenbitzI think in general we should take steps to reduce psychopathic behavior
17:34barra_libraryhmm should I add that to the list of topics for the meeting? having kids in PARPG and should they be invincible?
17:34Zenbitzsuch that it's not really a viable "game"
17:35GarmGarfwell sadistic
17:35barra_libraryyep Zenbitz, that was my idea as well
17:35barra_librarythere should be severe consequences to childkilling
17:35NineOfHeartsGarmGarf, we've written the story with the idea that the player can hurt whoever they want. This works for the NPC rating system that Matney and I have devised.
17:35barra_librarycoolio, just saw that you came up with a state of world proposal Zenbitz
17:35Zenbitzso if you really want to go berzerk in the orphanage... you game is going to be over pretty soon
17:36Zenbitzyeah, boosted from forums
17:36GarmGarfexcellent
17:36Zenbitzwe def need to talk about it today... I will add to agenda (if I can find it in the next 10 min)
17:36UH-Guard2Title: Proposals:StateOfTheWorld - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
17:37Zenbitzhey got it!
17:37barra_libraryI like the idea of scarce pre war vs. more common after war tech
17:38NineOfHeartsYes, the children should be able to be killed. At some point in the storyline I imagine that you may actually have to do it since I'm writing in an accomplice to one the major baddies that is a child.
17:38barra_librarythis way getting your hands on good maintained pre war tech will be a good motivation for the player, and we don't need to invent any magic capes or something like that, the more powerful gear is simply prewar
17:38GarmGarfpersonnaly idc if children can be killed just some of the users might not like it
17:39Zenbitzno one had a problem with it in Fallout 1/2 GarmGarf
17:39barra_librarydepends
17:39Zenbitzor if they did... it was generally popular
17:39barra_libraryI think we're aiming for a more mature target audience
17:40GarmGarfwell arcanum cut children cos Siera made them I think. not sure though
17:40barra_librarywe're speaking about 2d! turnbased! old school RPG
17:40barra_libraryso this kind of crowd might not be easily offended
17:40ZenbitzThere is a difference between NOHs "childkilling" plot and indiscriminant slaughter of innocents
17:41NineOfHeartsbarra_library, I agree that the pre-war weapons should be the strong weapons the player would want to seek out.
17:41Zenbitzalso, if they don't like it, they can not pay nothing for it.
17:41GarmGarfI dont care if children can be killed; if eveyone can be killed it would be out of sinc if children couldn't.
17:41Zenbitzexcept the ParPigs... they can't be killed
17:41Zenbitzj/k
17:41NineOfHeartsOur story takes place about twenty years after the nuclear strike of WWIII.
17:42barra_libraryyep, I think if children are in the game, they shouldn't be threated as an exception
17:42Zenbitzas for "strong weapons" I would really like to avoid standard RPG model of ending the game with uber weapons
17:42barra_libraryI always fail to spell that term right
17:42ZenbitzA pre-war weapon is great sure... but how much ammo do you have?
17:42GarmGarfhey maybe we should impliment einstine's quote somewhere in this game - "I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
17:43NineOfHeartsSo, anything pre-war will be hard to get ahold of and since the weapons and ammunitions have been picked over throughout the years.
17:43barra_librarygood point Zenbitz
17:43barra_libraryhmm that would be a nice easteregg GarmGarf
17:43barra_libraryheya Gaspard_
17:43Zenbitzyeah... more like crossbows and tireirons
17:43Gaspard_hey all
17:43Bretzelhey Gaspard_
17:44barra_libraryhas anyone played Arcanum besides GarmGarf ?
17:44Gaspard_uhm, meetings already on ?
17:44Gaspard_I have played Arcanum
17:44GarmGarfwe migjht impliment some form of items being easilr breakable or being able to be stolen or something so the player has to keep on going back to crap and then better weapons
17:44NineOfHeartsNo, I haven't played Arcanum.
17:44barra_libraryI know it will be hard to find a way to work in our setting, but we should have really have a Tarant-like town in PARPG :-)
17:44barra_libraryheya Meinmartini
17:44MeinmartiniYo
17:44GarmGarfan underground town :P
17:44GarmGarfheyo
17:44ZenbitzI have to work on PARPG instead of wasting time on arcanum...
17:44barra_libraryhehe
17:45barra_librarynah, meeting is not on yet Gaspard_
17:45GarmGarfany time on arcanum isn't a waste!
17:45barra_librarystill 15 minutes
17:45GarmGarf'any time spent
17:45Gaspard_okay, then I didn't miscalculate or anything, good, good
17:45MeinmartiniAh, thar is a meeting today?
17:45barra_libraryyep
17:45Zenbitz"all time is wasted"
17:45barra_librarystarting in 15 minutes
17:45NineOfHeartsHi Meinmartini, Matney and company.\
17:45GarmGarftime is consumed
17:45ZenbitzI am going to drop in and out first 10 minutes, while I:
17:46Zenbitza) get off train
17:46Zenbitzb) get on shuttle
17:46Zenbitzc) get off shuttle
17:46Zenbitzc) walk into office
17:46GarmGarfI choose both the c options
17:47Zenbitzgarmgarf... I think breakable works really well for stuff like vehicles which can be used in a quest, but we don't want player to keep
17:47Gaspard_I'm reading some heavy sci-fi space opera right now and couldn't resist the urge: do you work in space Zenbitz ? :D
17:47Zenbitzweapons... I would just flat out cap the ammo available
17:47Zenbitzno, california
17:48GarmGarfwell meaybe we could impliment some sort of reparing mechanics
17:48Zenbitzwe will
17:48GarmGarfbut then we'd require means for things to broken
17:48ZenbitzI guess broken, but not "worn out" like status bars for weaspons armor
17:49barra_libraryhmm what do you mean with resurrected Soviet war machines Zenbitz ?
17:49Zenbitzthere was an old thread on this in forums
17:49Zenbitzbarra; I mean like a barely working T72
17:49Zenbitzok starting phase (a)...brb
17:49Zenbitz"Computer goes to sleep!"
17:50barra_libraryconcerning your question Nihathrael: latest trunk works fine even if built from scratch
17:52barra_librarywb Zenbitz
17:52Zenbitzah so putting the laptop to sleep breaks bluetooth modem cxn
17:52barra_libraryand heya tie
17:52Zenbitzlearn something new every day
17:52tiehey all
17:53tieZenbitz: you are on os x, right?
17:53barra_libraryhmm I guess we should juggle topics and start with the state of the world proposal and tackle childkilling after that?
17:53Bretzelhey tie
17:54Zenbitzya 10.5.7 intel
17:54tiehi Bretzel
17:54barra_librarybrb, need to grab some water before the meeting starts
17:54tiedamn mac fanboys :)
17:54Zenbitzmy work owns it
17:54ZenbitzI'm OS agnostic
17:54Zenbitzthough I prefer the unix
17:54tieZenbitz: anyway, you should be able to disable the sleep-on-closed-lid functionality... that should keep the bluetooth modem running
17:55Zenbitzyeah, but generally I like it
17:55Zenbitzbattery drains like a mofo otherwise
17:55GreyGhost"Leaving"
17:55tieZenbitz: well, you can turn it back one once you reach the space station :) just turn it off while traveling
17:56tieit should be a simple switch; at least it is in FreeBSD
17:56Zenbitzok just for you I'll try it when I go out for my next space walk in 00:04
17:57tiecool, look for the 'sysctl hw.acpi' options
17:58barra_libraryhaha tie, about the sleep on close lid functionality
17:58Zenbitzah, no time...
17:58barra_libraryI was suffering from that on win32 as well
17:58barra_libraryit turned out to be a bug in my graphics card drivers that screwed up the power management settings
17:59tiebarra_library: yeah, I also had some issues with that on freebsd
17:59barra_libraryresolved it by installing a modded graphics card driver
17:59Zenbitzbe back in 5
17:59Zenbitz"Quitting!"
17:59barra_librarydo you have an ATI graphics card as well tie ?
17:59barra_librarywouldn't be surprised if ATI screwed up on several OS'es
17:59tiebarra_library: nope, nvidia
18:00tieati's cards really suck under bsd/linux
18:00tienvidia is ages ahead with its *nix drivers
18:00Nihathraelbarra_library: thanks
18:01Nihathraelthen i can create an archlinux packagebuild now fogr fife and unknown-horizons
18:01barra_libraryanyway, let's wait for a minute for zenbitz to return and we can start with the first official writing department meeting :-)
18:01Nihathraelbarra_library: do you happen to know how one can install fife?
18:01barra_librarywhat do you mean Nihathrael ?
18:01barra_libraryinstall where? what would you like to do?
18:02Nihathraeli would like to make an install on a linux system
18:02barra_libraryno idea, been on win32 almost my entire life
18:03Prockbarra: time to switch it up
18:03barra_librarywhy is that Prock? :-)
18:03Prockgoogle os
18:03barra_libraryI feel pretty comfortable on winxp
18:03Prockyeah.. its boring
18:03MatneyGoogle OS will probably have some "accidental" clause giving Google ownership of everything you create within it.
18:03Procklol
18:03Prockprobably
18:03NineOfHearts>.<
18:04Zenbitzpower umbilical: ENABLED
18:04MeinmartinigOS is Linux, isn't it?
18:04Zenbitznetwork feed: ENABLED
18:04Zenbitzhello.... Earth
18:04Gaspard_: D
18:04barra_libraryanyway, let's waste not too much time
18:04MatneyMeinmartini, last I checked, every OS is built on a Unix core...
18:05barra_librarywelcome to the first official PARPG writing department meeting :-)
18:05Zenbitzwhere's the OS advocacy meeting?
18:05barra_libraryfor the ones who took part in the first project meeting about two weeks ago, you might be already familiar with all of this
18:05MatneyI'm sure freenode has one, Zenbitz.
18:05barra_libraryfor the others, here's a meeting workflow proposal: http://wiki.parpg.net/Meetings#Meeting_workflow
18:05UH-Guard2Title: Meetings - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
18:06barra_librarywe'll have more round table discussions in that one; meaning: somebody will just give a really short introduction and we'll move to the discussion right away
18:06tieZenbitz: check what you get out of `sysctl hw.acpi.lid_switch_state` - swithing this setting should control the lid-closing sleep
18:06barra_libraryhere's the list of topics for the today's meeting: http://wiki.parpg.net/Meeting:2009/07/10#List_of_topics
18:06UH-Guard2Title: Meeting:2009/07/10 - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
18:07barra_libraryany proposals for the a topic to start with? if not, we'll start with the alternative history question
18:07Zenbitzsecond level name acpi in hw.acpi.lid_switch_state is invalid
18:07ZenbitzI think we should just go in order
18:08tieZenbitz: blah... they prolly changed the name... damn apples
18:08barra_libraryalrighty, so I just give a short introduction to the topic
18:08barra_libraryGarmGarf, who's a new game mechanics designer on the team just brought up the topic today
18:09GarmGarfWho, me?
18:09barra_librarywe know that we follow an alternative history story approach in PARPG; meaning: WWIII will happen in 1988
18:09barra_librarynow the question arises: when does our game's history split itself of the real history as it happened?
18:10barra_libraryI might have missed any discussions about the topic at the forums, AFAIR there has been some able archer proposal
18:10ZenbitzI think very close to 1988... just for simplicity
18:11GarmGarfwait do you have to say "END" when you are done introduction?
18:11barra_libraryso we don't have to make up a lot of game history?
18:11Matneydid WW3 start in '88, or end in '88?
18:11Zenbitzdid it ever end?
18:11barra_librarysometimes it's obvious, but if there's a quite long introduction to the topic, giving some kind of indication that the intro is done and we can move into discussion is appreciated, yes GarmGarf
18:11barra_libraryit started in 1988
18:12UH-Guard2Title: Draft:Setting - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
18:12ZenbitzThere was a nice background someone wrote up
18:13Zenbitzgarfunkel
18:13UH-Guard2Title: Synopsis for WW3 (at forums.parpg.net)
18:13MatneyI'd vote that history changed in 1988, then. If earlier than that, only early enough to justify the war starting in '88.
18:14ZenbitzI agree with Dave!
18:14Matney(Someone put that in the notes. :) )
18:14Gaspard_buut most history would still be the same - it's just a military operation which triggers the WWIII. after that it's purely our playground
18:14barra_libraryoki, I'll take the notes for the first topic
18:14ZenbitzI think that a conventional start (soviet invasion of W europe + some tactic nukes)
18:14barra_libraryand hope that somebody else covers the next one :-P
18:15Zenbitzescalates in to general nuke exchange, followed by some doomsday plague bombs (to keep the southern hemisphere from coming in and taking over)
18:15Zenbitzand maybe drop the population further to 1% or 0.1%
18:15barra_libraryis everyone fine with the able archer proposal from the forums?
18:16MatneyI'm still reading it, but so far, yea.
18:16Gaspard_yep
18:16barra_libraryoki, I think we can have a five minute break so everyone can read the thread
18:17ZenbitzWe don't have to sign off on the details, it can be edited post hoc to fill in necessary details
18:17Zenbitzjust general flow
18:17UH-Guard2Title: Able Archer 83 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
18:17barra_libraryyep, but this break gives me time to start taking the first notes at the wiki :-p
18:19Zenbitzhmm... wasn't there a more detailed war one...
18:20MatneyWhat do you mean, Zenbitz?
18:20barra_librarythread at the forums?
18:20barra_librarywould be nice if somebody could dig it up
18:20barra_libraryone question: it seems that able archer took place in 1983
18:21barra_libraryso what happens in the five years till 1988 that leads to WWIII?
18:21MatneyWhat I gather from the Wikipedia page is that Able Archer was a program to prepare US soldiers for a Nuclear War.
18:22Zenbitznot finding it
18:22ZenbitzI think we should go with Abel Archer II
18:22Zenbitzthat happens in 1988... or something else
18:23barra_librarythis would be a made up scenario by us Zenbitz ?
18:23barra_libraryin this case we would need to explain why they think it's actually a preparation for war in 1988 while it turned out just to be an exercise 1983
18:23MatneyI think that's a reasonable idea, Zenbitz. It looks like Reagan shut down the program, and in Garfunkle's proposal, Reagan didn't.
18:25barra_libraryI wouldn't mind an able archer II, but we should have a reasonable explanation why it escalated this time
18:25Zenbitzit's not super critical... in the original original original Lamoot/zenbitz/barra days... we wanted to have soviet vehicles (or their corpses) lying aroudn... which implies a relatively sucessful ground invasion (that eventually turned nuclear)
18:26barra_libraryso the ground invasion happended before the nukes were fired?
18:26ZenbitzI think we should assign / volunteer someone to work on the back story, given a set of criteria (i.e, where we want the 2009 world to be)
18:26Zenbitzwe can't do it now
18:26barra_libraryyep, that's sure, just trying to get an idea in which direction we're heading, we can only agree on some basic points and next steps / tasks today
18:27Zenbitzbut yes, I do think ground invasion by USSR first
18:27Zenbitzotherwise, you would get (IMO) something that might actually spare europe somewhat.
18:27Zenbitzthe US would just plaster soviet targets mostly, and the soviets would plaster US targets mostly
18:27Bretzelbe back in a bit gonna go grab some lunch
18:27BretzelBretzel_away
18:28ZenbitzI think we should figure out somewhat to drop a small nuke on every city > 100,000 peace time population
18:28Zenbitzthat way... we don't have to design maps!
18:28barra_librarydo you happen to remember which countries the Soviets invaded first Zenbitz ?
18:28barra_library(just wording the results at the wiki)
18:29Gaspard_But it '88 there were many Soviet troops stationed all over Europe
18:30Zenbitzuh, the closest ones? I mean, you gotta go through germany to hit france!
18:30barra_libraryhmm just found another logic hole
18:30ZenbitzSHOCK!
18:30barra_libraryit might be easier to let the war begin before Gorbatcev gained power in 1985
18:31ZenbitzOh, military coup
18:31Gaspard_weelll, that would give the Soviets an edge - there were autobahns in Germany already, a pretty quick means to transport troops
18:31barra_libraryor we either have to come up with proposals why Gorbatcev never gained power or why he did not implement Perestroika and Glasnost
18:31Matney<-- Admittedly doesn't know much about the cold war. I was 2 in '85.
18:31ZenbitzI am pretty sure the russians - if not stopped by nukes would be at the English channel in about 3 weeks
18:31barra_libraryas these two policies make it quite unlikely to let this situation escalate
18:32NineOfHearts<--- negative four in 1985.
18:32Zenbitzthere were at least 1-2 near coups in USSR from 1986-1990
18:32ZenbitzI think there was one in 1989
18:32barra_libraryhmm we could have an alternative history where Gorbatcev was overthrown and some hardlines takes power
18:32barra_library* hardliner
18:33Gaspard_Perestroika was in 87 - we could push it a year into the future, which would mean into the WWIII times
18:33Gaspard_means no Perestroika
18:33barra_libraryI like the coup d'etat idea :-)
18:33barra_librarythe hardliners did not like the reforms, felt the danger of losing power and overthrew Gorbatcev
18:34Gaspard_Most modern generals are still pretty trigger-happy
18:34Gaspard_I bet they were back then too
18:34Zenbitzsure... I think we should cut this short though.... anyone want to hit the wiki and do some cold war research?? If not, I will do it
18:34barra_libraryI wouldn't mind supporting you Zenbitz :-) I'm a student of history and a had a presentation about the Gorbatcev reforms
18:35Zenbitzgreat, you do it
18:35barra_libraryhaha :-p
18:35barra_libraryalrighty, so I'll do further research and will come up with a proposal
18:36barra_libraryif there are no other proposals, we could move on to the state of the game world topic: http://wiki.parpg.net/Meeting:2009/07/10#Current_state_of_the_.28game.29_world
18:36UH-Guard2Title: Meeting:2009/07/10 - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
18:36barra_librarymaybe you could say 1-2 words about the general idea of writing such an article, the main purpose of it
18:36barra_librarythat one was meant for Zenbitz
18:38ZenbitzOK... basically the idea was that we should first create a world in which the game takes place... and THEN fill it with cool stories and people and place
18:38Zenbitzs
18:38Zenbitzwe had written down some "setting" things, but they were entirely too vague.
18:40ZenbitzI think I was hoping eleazzar was going to take over the writing dept... but he left. Life of a FOSS dev.
18:40barra_libraryoki, so let's give everyone five minutes to read the proposals and let's move into discussion after that?
18:40UH-Guard2Title: Proposals:StateOfTheWorld - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
18:42barra_libraryI'll take that as a "yes" and you're all reading it :-p
18:43Gaspard_I went over it again but I don't think I have more to say atm than what I already wrote at the forums..
18:43barra_librarythis has been already discussed at the forums?
18:43barra_libraryI thought that zenbitz just wrote it down today
18:44Zenbitzdo you READ the forums barra? I started the thread a couple days ago
18:44Zenbitzthere was not much discussion except from Gaspard
18:44Zenbitzwell, between you and me barra we have the forums and IRC covered...
18:45barra_librarysorry, haven't been following the writing board in detail
18:45MatneyI haven't either, this week. I skimmed the topic, though.
18:45Zenbitzwell, good thing we have a meeting then...
18:47barra_libraryany questions about Zenbitz's proposal?
18:47Gaspard_nope
18:47NineOfHeartsWhy shouldn't the drugs have a positive effect on the player?
18:48MatneyI know it means a lot of work to rewrite drafts, but I agree with Zenbitz on this one. I've been scrambling like hell to explain the numbers that were thrown out, all willie nillie, and, even though I can explain it in a plausable manor, it's tetering on the line between hard to believe and completely unbelievable.
18:48Bretzel_awayRead error: 110 (Connection timed out)
18:48MatneyNineOfHearts: drugs don't have a positve effect on normal people, do they?
18:48GarmGarfthey can
18:48GarmGarfdepends on drug
18:48NineOfHeartsI would say they can.
18:49GarmGarfand how much is taken of it
18:49MatneyBut most of the time, they don't.
18:49GarmGarfcaffinew helps people stay awake
18:49ZenbitzDave, it's not the explanation (which is tricky enough)... it's that I don't agree that the result (10m ice/snow) makes for the best game
18:49Gaspard_You could buy someone drinks so your Charisma goes up in THEIR eyes..
18:49barra_libraryhmm depends Matney
18:50barra_libraryAFAIR cocaine is sometimes used to be more creative and stay awake over days
18:50barra_libraryso you could work more
18:50Zenbitzmy grandmother used to take speed to study for tests in college
18:50Gaspard_with nasty enough drawbacks
18:50NineOfHeartsIt's similar to caffine on a chemical level.
18:50NineOfHeartsAnd, that's what I was going to say next Gaspard_.
18:50GarmGarfthere are also loads of medical drugs
18:51MatneyZenbitz... I agree with you there, too. I like the idea of ice/snow being high enough to cover single-story buildings, though.
18:51NineOfHearts:)
18:51barra_libraryI'm not proposing to implement superpower drugs like in Fallout, but I think there should be drugs with pros and cons
18:51shevysnowball attack!
18:51NineOfHeartsI like the idea that someone could gamble with their player.
18:52Zenbitzdave, I think that's fine... during winter or in select areas
18:52NineOfHeartsThey really need the boost from the drug but at the risk of serious side-effects.
18:52MatneyZenbitz, I totally agree that, visually, having the whole world blanketed in snow would be boring as hell, too.
18:52GarmGarfall we need to do is make original drugs
18:52ZenbitzI'm fine with drugs giving some+ but it's very tricky to balance or they just become "magic potions of blah"
18:52GarmGarflike dont have cannabis or heroine; make new stuff
18:53ZenbitzI don't like new stuff
18:53MatneyIf we have drugs, we should have addiction meters, too, and we'll need to figure in the effects of withdrawl and detoxing.
18:53Zenbitz"If they didn't have in in 1988, and can't make it in the post apocaylse, you can't have it
18:53barra_libraryyep, I think the risk of addiction is a good idea Matney
18:53NineOfHeartsGarmGarf, like ectasy?
18:53GarmGarfwell new stuff would one: make our game not endorse any drugs; two: not make us have to potray each real drug accuratly; and three: give us room to balance the drugs'
18:53shevygonna googles for ancient drugs!
18:54barra_libraryI'm not too keen on inventing any fantasy drugs either
18:54MatneyFantasy drugs are harder than hell to develop: I've tried it for PnP rpgs.
18:55barra_libraryas we go for a low tech scenario, it's unlikely that somebody runs a brand new drug lab that is the source of new fanstastic drugs
18:55GarmGarfok then just real drugs or none at all
18:55barra_libraryyep, I would be fine with that
18:55Matneynumber wise, anything you'd want to do is already taken care of with existing drugs. Effect wise, mostly taken care of with existing drugs as well.
18:55Gaspard_Hey, but most drugs either make you sleepy of keep you going and boost your adrenaline, all have nasty side-effects some nastier some no worse than a light hangover if even that
18:55GarmGarf(and its not "fantasy" drugs, it would have been "si-fi" drugs)
18:56barra_libraryit would need some research what kind of drugs have been available till 1988, but besides that I don't see a problem
18:56barra_libraryand furthermore we need to evaluate prewar vs. afterwar drugs
18:56Matney(SyFy... way to sell out, Sci-Fi. :p)
18:56barra_librarythere might be some prewar drugs but I guess afterwar moonshine would be far more common?
18:56MatneyAnd, I'd wager, mushrooms.
18:56Gaspard_heroine-morphine-canabis-LSD-shrooms-strong black tea ._.
18:56barra_libraryhehe you're correct on that one GarmGarf
18:56Zenbitzdoes anyone like my idea of using drugs (and sex) to "heal" psychic damage?
18:57Zenbitzor is that too silly?
18:57MatneyIt'd be temporary at best, Zenbitz.
18:57barra_libraryhard to say
18:57shevyand certain painkillers
18:57barra_libraryI guess it really depends on the implementation
18:57GarmGarfphychic damage? are we gonna hve phychic people in this game?
18:57Gaspard_how would you make psychic dam. work ?
18:57MatneyAnd it'd have to go against the addiction meter, or whatever; the more addicted, the shorter the time the "healing" would work.
18:57Zenbitzanyone ever played a paper game called "Call of Cthuthlu"
18:58shevyyeah
18:58Gaspard_Yep
18:58Zenbitzsanity points
18:58NineOfHeartsNope.
18:58MatneyNo, 'cause the kid that tried to introduce it to me was a douche.
18:58shevyit was the shortest of our RPGs because the actors died very quickly
18:58Gaspard_But you'd get used to stuff like that in 20 yrs or when you grow up there
18:58Zenbitzyou had sanity points like hit points, except you lost them for witnessing or doing "horrible" things
18:58Zenbitza good CoC session has half the party die and the other half go insane
18:58Gaspard_mostly CoC had ghastly monsters barging into our everyday life - no wonder a librarian has the creeps
18:59GarmGarfwill this game have a consciousness meter btw? like a second health meter but when it gets to zero the player falls unconsciousness
18:59barra_libraryhmm there is actually a CoC indie RPG in the making Zenbitz
18:59barra_libraryfeaturing sanity points :-)
18:59shevyZenbitz is Mister Evil
18:59ZenbitzGarmGarf... kinda...
18:59Zenbitzit won't have typical hit points.
19:00GarmGarfArcanaum had one of those - called a "fatigue meter"
19:00Matneyshevy, that's how CoC is. You can't win, you can't make it out happy
19:00Zenbitzthere is no leveling up in CoC
19:00NineOfHeartsI'm still perplexed at the idea that sex and drugs could heal your sanity.
19:00Meinmartini"Leaving"
19:00shevyhehe
19:00ZenbitzNOH - why do people drink?
19:01GarmGarflike each wepon had two different damage values - a normal damage and a fatigue damage. brusing weapons like hammers delt more fatigue damage than normal while slicing weapons, like swords, dealt more normal dmaage than fatigue
19:01NineOfHeartsBecause it's a social thing?
19:01shevyMatney, sounds like the 3 rules of life: you cant win, you have to lose, there is only one way to quit :>
19:01Zenbitzto help them relax, to reduce stress, because it makes them feel good and happy
19:01Zenbitzother drugs, same thing
19:01barra_libraryhmm forgetting by drinking might not really mean healing
19:01Gaspard_Instead of sanity a sort of Stress Meter ?
19:01NineOfHeartsBut, how would that heal your sanity?
19:01Gaspard_stress out and go nuts anyhow
19:01NineOfHeartsGaspard_ I think you've hit the nail on the head.
19:01Zenbitzit's not "sanity!" that was just an analogy
19:01barra_librarystress meter sounds like good idea to me
19:01shevysanity is overrated
19:01Zenbitzit's stress level.
19:01GarmGarfcertain medical drugs are supposed to do that
19:01Gaspard_Aha
19:01barra_libraryI would be fine with a stress meter
19:02Zenbitzbasically, I was trying to think of a way to get a game player to get drunk.
19:02NineOfHeartsIt seems like everyone's on cue with the stress meter.
19:02Gaspard_After a heavy day looting corpses you pop some meth, down a beer and hump a hot lady in a cold tent
19:02Zenbitzthere has to be some tangable benefit - same with all the drugs - or the gamer won't do it.
19:02ZenbitzAT LEAST there has to be a trade off.
19:03MatneyThat's not entirely true... they won't do it more than once, though.
19:03barra_libraryyep, I agree about that
19:03Gaspard_With stress going up happens what.. hands shaking in a combat situation ?
19:03barra_librarythat would be one option Gaspard_
19:03Zenbitzit's not determined yet
19:03Gaspard_an annoying NPC might make you go berserk õ_o
19:03Gaspard_okay
19:03MatneyGaspard, what happens when you get stressed? I lose focus, my back gets rediculously tight, and I start to just get angry.
19:03GarmGarfso will there be a fatigue/consciousness meter yeah? (not the stress one; something else)
19:03Gaspard_I'm all for Stress or equivalent in then
19:03barra_libraryyep, it could affect your dialogue options as well
19:04ZenbitzI didn't develop the idea because I didn't get any "hell ya!"
19:04Zenbitzfatigue yes
19:04Zenbitz"subdual damage" yes
19:04MatneySo, when I stress, my wisdom and dex go down, and I'm closer to berserking. :p
19:04barra_libraryand you become the Hulk :-)
19:04barra_librarysorry, couldn't resist
19:04Zenbitztricky... to take control away from the player like that... but it could work
19:04NineOfHeartsbarra_library, changing the dialog options based on the stress is a great idea.
19:05barra_libraryit might be a bit of overkill
19:05barra_librarybut it might really create some interesting situations in places
19:05Zenbitzanyway, clearly worth developing... I will adjust wiki if it's not already there
19:05barra_librarynope, didn't take notes for this topic
19:05Zenbitznote that this means drugs must have pretty severe negative effects
19:05GarmGarfone one way drunkness could work is that consuming alchohol could overlap with the chacrters' fatigue meter. if it reaches the charcter's current fatigue value than the charcter gets drunk (this conveyes how tired people get drunk more easily)
19:06Zenbitzotherwise you have people in serious stress/drink cycles
19:06barra_libraryI'll look into summarizing the meeting results tomorow, have to leave right after the meeting
19:06MatneyI feel really bad about bailing, but i've gotta go. Gotta get some lunch before my wife has an MRI. :(
19:06Gaspard_zenbitz, basically it wouldn't be too hard to take that control away - if you trigger combat and make character shout "Banzaaii mofo !" Then I guess you're already in a nasty combat situation
19:07Zenbitzwe are running into mechanics qs here...
19:07Gaspard_A good night's sleep would also lower stress
19:07NineOfHeartsGood luck with that Matney!
19:07Gaspard_sorry
19:07MatneyI'm sure NineOfHearts can answer any and all questions about our storyline, and if there are any questions that she can't, or need to be answered by me specifically, I'll follow up in the forums.
19:07barra_librarylater Matney :-)
19:07Gaspard_See you
19:07barra_libraryhmm we might want to move to the next topic or otherwhise we won't make it in time
19:08barra_librarywould you like to overhaul your proposal based on the meetings feedback Zenbitz ?
19:08barra_libraryjust trying to dish out tasks again so we can move on the next topic :-p
19:08MatneyAlso, if anything needs immediate attention, you can text me (if you're in the US, that is... international texting is expensive) 801.809.7797
19:08MatneyAdios.
19:09Matney"Page closed"
19:10Zenbitzcutting and pasting this chat into wiki
19:10Zenbitzl84
19:10barra_libraryoki :-)
19:10barra_libraryso let's move on the the childkilling question: http://wiki.parpg.net/Meeting:2009/07/10#Childkilling
19:10UH-Guard2Title: Meeting:2009/07/10 - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
19:10barra_librarythe two main questions are :
19:10barra_library1. should children be part of the game
19:10barra_library2. should you be able to kill children
19:11barra_library3. how should the game world react to childkillers? what are the consequences?
19:11barra_libraryoki, make that 3
19:11shevy1) i think if there be no children in the game, every player will ask "why are there no children"
19:11Gaspard_1. if the story calls for it - why not. if not.. might add some mood to an area anyhow
19:11Zenbitzyes children, yes you can kill, yes it's very bad for your stress meter
19:12Gaspard_2. what lives and breathes should be killable by the player
19:12barra_libraryyep, I think having children, adults and older people adds quite a lot of options in terms of quest design and storyline
19:12Zenbitzstress thoughts added here: http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Thoughts_on_wounding#Mental_Heath_and_Stress
19:12UH-Guard2Title: Zenbitz:Thoughts on wounding - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
19:12shevy2) i think needs to be an option. i think the fallout version of germany just removed children because of the very possibility that a playercharacter can kill children (dont understand that mindset since it is just sprite but ok...)
19:13shevyhmm somehow my sentence was not properly finished ... :/
19:13barra_libraryI would prefer the Fallout (1 & 2) approach as well: there are children, you can kill them, but it will have _very_ negative consequences
19:13Gaspard_3. children are a pized "commodity". without meds miscarriages would be pretty common - if you kill one your one helluva sonuvabitch in trouble
19:13GarmGarfif killing children adds a lot of stress than we should conmcider making a background that aloows the player to be sadistic
19:13Zenbitzgood point gaspard
19:13NineOfHearts1. Children should be part of the game, 2. Yes, you should be able to kill children, 3. How much it puts on the stress meter will vary with the PC's age.
19:13shevybarra_library but the approach for the german version was to disable children globally, which lead to problems with very few quests which required children
19:14barra_libraryyep I know shevy :-)
19:14GarmGarfalso children generaly wont have much on them so there wouldn't be much of a benifit to kill them
19:14barra_librarystill have a German copy of both games at home
19:14shevyhehe
19:14barra_librarytrue GarmGarf
19:14barra_libraryif we don't introduce a children thief ring
19:14Gaspard_They might gang up and throw stones at you... look at what's going on in Africa. A 13-year-old with an AK-47 would be as dangerous as a grownup with an AK-47
19:15barra_librarybut the idea would have been stolen from FO2, so we might not want to go for that
19:15shevyGaspard_, we dont wanna add child soldiers now do we?
19:15shevybut a group of young thieves could be fun
19:15Gaspard_haha, that's up to the storywriters
19:15NineOfHeartsshevy, in the story arc that Matney and I created there will be child soldiers later in the game.
19:15shevyeww
19:16Gaspard_but if there's an old mother living in a farm in the middle of no-where and she has a 15-year-old son and 12-year-old daughter and two rifles...
19:16barra_libraryso having children, being able to kill them and having consequences is pretty much consensus?
19:16NineOfHeartsI think the consequence should vary with age.
19:16Gaspard_yup
19:16barra_libraryif so, we can delegate the proposals how childkilling affects you to somebody to flesh out at a later point and move on with the discussion
19:17barra_libraryjust wanted to see if somebody is against it in general
19:17Zenbitzseems like no objections
19:17barra_libraryany volunteers for working out a childkilling consequences proposal? might be a bit too early to work out at this point?
19:18barra_libraryso we could agree on: children, killable, consequences will be fleshed out later
19:18NineOfHeartsbarra_library, I would like to work on the childkilling consequences proposal.
19:18Gaspard_let's start a thread for the purpose and discuss
19:18Gaspard_mainly point 3. thogh
19:18barra_libraryalrighty, that's both fine with me, NineOfHearts could start with her proposal and the others join the discussion?
19:18barra_library(at the forums, that is)
19:18Gaspard_ho!
19:19Zenbitzk
19:19barra_libraryalrighty, so let's do it this way
19:19barra_libraryjust puzzled if we should discuss the two main storyline proposals as next point
19:19barra_libraryor rather the question how the climate changes influence the storyline
19:20barra_libraryif we discuss the climate changes first, we might have a clear preference for one storyline
19:20Gaspard_climate
19:20barra_librarythat's also true the other way round I guess :-/
19:20barra_libraryhow do the others feel about it?
19:21barra_librarythe climate change topic is basically about the question: is the world getting warmer again or if is getting even colder when the player characters gets involved
19:21ZenbitzI guess we have three possibilites
19:21Zenbitzgets warmer
19:21Zenbitzgets colder
19:21Zenbitzstays the same
19:21Gaspard_I'm for getting colder
19:21Zenbitzor 4, technically: goes back and forth
19:21NineOfHeartsI am for getting warmer.
19:22ZenbitzI think the main problem with getting warmer is that it starts too cold
19:22barra_libraryare there any arguments for or against one option besides your preferences for a certain storyline that is associated with these proposals?
19:22Gaspard_If today, 20 after, it's fubar weather-wise, then an outright nuke'o'frenzy might accelerate the process
19:23Gaspard_in our fictional universe
19:23barra_librarythere was the idea if getting feedback by a climatologist, maybe that's an option to decide on the point?
19:23ZenbitzI mean, if the earth is HOTH or antarctica... then a warming makes sense.
19:23Zenbitzdramatically
19:23Zenbitzbarra, I don't think the "real world" impacts too much
19:23NineOfHeartsWell, the reason why I propose the idea of it getting warmer is because a nuclear winter is scientifically hypothesized to subside in about twenty years.
19:23barra_libraryhis / her answer might be that both scenarios are possible in theory, but it might be worth asking
19:23Zenbitzwe are fudging the science one way or the other
19:24barra_libraryI know too little about the topic to provide much useful input
19:24ZenbitzNOH - I agree, but similarly it would never get really cold enough to matter
19:25Zenbitzso your dramatic effect of thaw is lost
19:25barra_libraryso I guess your point is without some alternative science, nuclear winter would never happen anyway Zenbitz ?
19:25Zenbitzi do think it makes sense if we pushed the game 100 years in the future.
19:25ZenbitzHave all the oldsters dead.
19:26Zenbitzeveryone alive knows only cold world
19:26Zenbitzthen ... WTF? Spring!
19:26barra_libraryhmm that's a good point, if we go for 20 years after, the oldsters would adopt to the thaw pretty well I guess
19:27barra_library* adopt to >> cope with
19:27Zenbitzyeah, it's be all "woo hoo" it's over
19:27Gaspard_But nuclear winter itself doesn't necessarily mean snowstorms. But it could trigger a pesudo ice age in the long run
19:27Gaspard_pseudo**
19:28barra_libraryany opinion on the topic GarmGarf & shevy ?
19:28NineOfHeartsI don't think it would need to be pushed that far into the future at all for a spring to occur. According to what I read, a nuclear fallout would make the world cold enough for it to freeze in some parts. Parts that weren't frozen before. Then a spring could happen. All of the societies that just got back on their feet by building on the ice. Then the ice thaws. Uh-oh, screwed again.
19:28Zenbitzyou're missing the point
19:29barra_librarythat's a good point as well, 20 years of different circumstances is quite a lot
19:29GarmGarfI dont really have a stance on this area - whatever is good for me
19:29shevybarra_library i am right now in lean-back mode and just watching :)
19:29barra_libraryI remember how people in East Germany had issues to cope with the new capitalist society after the Wende
19:29shevyhehe
19:29shevy"the Wende"
19:29barra_libraryAFAIR that's the English term as well
19:30barra_libraryI could be horribly wrong
19:30barra_libraryactually it's "Die Wende"
19:30ProckProckAFK
19:30barra_librarybut I think that quite a lot of people would have a hard time coping with the thawing, so NOH's point is not completely irrelevant
19:32barra_librarynot too sure how to make the next step on agreeing upon a certain climate change proposal, any suggestions?
19:32NineOfHeartsWell, we're trying to make the game as realistic as possible.
19:32NineOfHeartsSo, I think your earlier suggestion about contacting a climatologist seems the most logical to me.
19:32Gaspard_but what's our game's niche then ?
19:32Zenbitzhey, I am the realism freak here!
19:33NineOfHeartsAs am I.
19:33Zenbitzand I think in this case... drama and game play trumps realism.
19:33barra_librarywe could have a public discussion at the forums and agree upon it at the next meeting? it might be better to introduce the two main storyline proposals at this meeting considering that each of them favours one climate change proposal
19:33NineOfHeartsI agree with that barra_library.
19:34barra_librarysomebody could contact a climatologist until then, so we got some expert feedback
19:34Zenbitzwhat I would like to see from "thaw" camp is
19:34Gaspard_sure
19:34Zenbitza) what is the (game) world like climate wise at the beginning
19:34Zenbitzb) what is it like at the end
19:34Zenbitzc) how fast is the transition
19:34barra_libraryI wouldn't totally make the decision dependent on the expert feedback though, in the end we should try to find a solution that makes the majority of the team happy, but I can see that it will be a tricky process
19:35ZenbitzHow does it apply to other parts of the map (not just Kalinnin/Estonia)... should we get that far
19:35Zenbitzwhat if the climatolgists says "nuclear winter would probably never happen, or only cool the world 3 d C"
19:36ZenbitzI will flesh out the weather/climate stuff on the StateOfTheWorld page
19:36Zenbitzmaybe have a "competing" stateOftheworld?
19:36barra_libraryhmm could we agree upon that both sides word a question for the climatologist and I try to find somebody to answer them
19:37Gaspard_competing ?
19:37Zenbitzassuming we get one (the one I know didn't write me back... but I don't know him that well and he's a big famous baseball stat analyst now)
19:37ZenbitzI think we should just use it to clean up our world... not drive it.
19:38ZenbitzWhy nuclear winter? Because we want to have PA adventures in the snow.
19:39barra_libraryis everyone fine with the climatologist proposal?
19:39NineOfHeartsWe also want for the game world to be versatile, nice to look at for the many hours we hope players will play, and realisitc. Hence the desire for the world to thaw.
19:39Zenbitzgaspard, I mean competing proposals
19:39barra_libraryjust trying to move the last two topics of the meeting :-)
19:40Zenbitzthat's why I made my page in Proposals, not drafts
19:40Zenbitza, b, c do not require d NOH.
19:40NineOfHeartsYes, barra_library, I agree with contacting a climatologist for an opinion on the matter.
19:40barra_libraryI think everyone agrees with most of the proposal Zenbitz, climate seems to be the most important point of controversy
19:41barra_librarycould you word an actual question for the climatologist?
19:41barra_librarymeaning: both "camps" involved in wording the question to ensure that it's not worded in a biased manner
19:41Gaspard_k
19:42Zenbitzlet me think about it barra
19:42barra_librarywe could discuss the wording at the forums Zenbitz :-)
19:42barra_libraryjust a question if we should do so
19:42barra_libraryas we still got two topics left
19:42ZenbitzI would rather solve it between ourselves
19:43barra_librarywithout external feedback=
19:43barra_library?
19:43Zenbitzyes
19:43barra_libraryI wasn't proposing that the external feedback is ultimatively binding
19:43barra_librarybut I don't see why some external feedback might not help us think about all pros and cons
19:44barra_librarywe might even decide to go for the less realistic approach if the pros of it outweight the cons
19:44Zenbitzok here is my ?: Could nuclear winter (possibly enhanced by volcanic activity) trigger an ice age? How fast do ice ages develop??
19:44barra_libraryjust saying that realism is one, but just one of several other, arguments for and against a certain climage proposal
19:44barra_libraryI'll add that to the wiki tomorrow Zenbitz
19:45barra_librarylet's move to presenting the two main story proposals, shall we?
19:45barra_library* climate proposal
19:46Gaspard_ok
19:46Zenbitzcan NOH go first?
19:46barra_libraryif she wants, I'm fine with either order
19:47NineOfHeartsSure, I can go first Zenbitz.
19:47barra_libraryNineOfHearts would you like to start to give a short summarization of your story proposal?
19:47NineOfHeartsHere is the wiki on the draft proposal for those who may not be familiar with the story arc Matney and I came up with.
19:47UH-Guard2Title: Draft:Main story by NineOfHearts and Dave Matney - Post-Apocalyptic RPG wiki (at wiki.parpg.net)
19:48NineOfHeartsHere's the summary:
19:48barra_library(brb)
19:49NineOfHeartsTwenty years after the nuclear strikes from WWIII the world has become a dangerous artic environment.
19:50NineOfHeartsTwo competing factions have arisen from the frost fighting for control.
19:51barra_library(back)
19:51NineOfHeartsThe ELL (the "bad guys") and the KSE.
19:51NineOfHearts(these names are subject to change)
19:52NineOfHeartsYou, the player, start off in a slave labor camp working under the ELL making explosives to support the ELL's attack on the KSE.
19:53NineOfHeartsOn this same fateful day you and your brother "The Oldest" escape from the camp after gathering the courage to risk your lives in the frozen tundra rather than in the protected environment of the ELL.
19:55barra_libraryhow is the storyline related the proposal that the climate is getting warmer again NineOfHearts? would it work in case the climate is getting colder as well?
19:55NineOfHeartsFrom here, "The Oldest" establishes a new society of children in a nearby city and names you the lead scout in charge of finding supplies for the City of Children.
19:55NineOfHeartsOh, yes, let me answer that.
19:56NineOfHeartsThe fullout war between both factions is decided in part by the world becoming even difficult to live in when the world starts to unexpectedly thaw.
19:57NineOfHeartsCities and groups start aligning themselves with one faction or the other in the hopes that by eliminating the other they will have more resources for themselves.
19:58barra_libraryhmm, the world is more difficult to live in as the change of thawing?
19:58NineOfHeartsBy the way, this is a collaborative effort between Matney and I and I know there are some thoughts of his that he would probably like to present in his own words.
19:58NineOfHeartsThis is correct, barra_library.
19:58Zenbitzhow many people live in the ELL and KSE?
19:58barra_libraryso people align to the factions as they're afraid of this change?
19:58NineOfHeartsYes, to an extent.
19:59NineOfHeartsWe have some quests in the making that rely on this changing of weather as well.
19:59NineOfHeartsFor example, one of the major cities that is residing in a submarine is in severe danger because of this warming.
20:00barra_librarythe snow covered the radiated sub, but with the thawing radiation is set free?
20:02NineOfHeartsWell, I admit that Matney is more well versed with the submarine city than I am but as far as I know the submarine is frozen in body of water.
20:02barra_libraryoki, no problem we can ask about it at the forums later
20:02barra_librarywhat I would be interested in: are there shades of grey when it comes to morality of the factions?
20:02NineOfHeartsHence, I don't think the radiation is as much as a problem as much as the vessel sinking into the water's depths.
20:03barra_libraryit sounds like the ELL are straight bad guys, what's their motivation for doing bad things?
20:03NineOfHeartsHmn, Matney and I are still talking this over.
20:03ZenbitzNOH, I really like all the ideas you have
20:04Zenbitzbut I find the whole system a little "restrictive" and not "sandboxy" enough
20:04barra_libraryyou mean as in railroading the player through the story Zenbitz ?
20:04ZenbitzI think so
20:04barra_librarythat might or might not work well
20:04NineOfHeartsWell, from the PC's point of view, they are bad because they have endangered the children and killed the children with no sense of morality.
20:04barra_libraryFallout was a good example of freeroam gameplay
20:04Zenbitzperhaps my scope is just different, considering the giant map we started with
20:05barra_librarywhile Planescape: Torment was almost the exact opposite, but it was a great game nevertheless
20:05Gaspard_you can get all sandboxy on a smaller map too..
20:05Zenbitzlike I said - it's not necessarily BAD, just not what I was thinking
20:06Zenbitzit reminds me of more of a FPS plot (and I like me some FPS games)
20:06barra_libraryI'm personally not too keen on any "acts" / "chapters" in RPGs, but that's just personal preference
20:06barra_librarythat said: I really loved PS:T, so I guess it's more a question of how it's implemented
20:06ZenbitzWhat I prefer is something where "stuff happens=
20:06Zenbitzin the world, and the player bumps into it
20:06NineOfHeartsAs for the fear of it not being sandboxy enough, I'm giving you the main parts of the story--there are a lot of events that happen between these let's call them...main story points.
20:07Zenbitzif he is somewhere else, it happens without him
20:07Zenbitzif he screws it up... it screws up
20:07ProckAFKProck
20:07barra_libraryyep, I think it's not a question of right or wrong here, but a question what kind of design philosophy we want to follow
20:07NineOfHeartsFor instance, "The Oldest" isn't your friend for the whole game (or could be if you choose to believe that his desire to cull children older than himself is a good thing).
20:08NineOfHeartsI could see the player joining the ELL to oppose "The Oldest".
20:08barra_libraryI think it might help to add a kind of design philosophy paragraph to each storyline proposal to point out which philosophy it follows
20:08ZenbitzI also was thinking of an even more free form beginning... but maybe we could have the first pre-act be you getting captured and stuck in the slave pits
20:08NineOfHeartsSee, that's where Matney and I are a bit stuck.
20:09NineOfHeartsExactly how you enter slavery.
20:09ZenbitzI think that's because you are worried about writing a book, not a game.
20:09Zenbitzwhere everything happens in sequence
20:09NineOfHeartsWell, even games need starting points Zenbitz.
20:09ZenbitzI could be wrong though... it's hard to tell what someone else is thinking
20:10Zenbitzdo they?
20:10NineOfHeartsI don't think good games have the PC materialize out of no where.
20:10Zenbitzwhat if I just designed a character and I started the game in a random location in on the map
20:10Zenbitzgiven that the game doesn't choose what kind of charcter I am in the first place, how does it know where I should start?
20:11barra_libraryI think it makes some to have some kind of dramaturgy Zenbitz, at least that's a common approach in game development as well
20:11ZenbitzThis is where fallout failed, IMO.
20:11barra_librarynot just for movies and books
20:11ZenbitzFO1: You are a vault dweller.
20:11barra_librarythat's rather hard with totally random events
20:11NineOfHeartsThen you have an unstructured sandbox game where the player has no direction and the events seem to happen at random.
20:11barra_libraryon the other side I think that good games might differ from good books and good movies
20:11Zenbitzbut you could have all sorts of crazy skills a vault dweller couldn't or wouldn't have
20:12Zenbitzditto FO2 - you are a tribal, but you can buy energy weapons skill? WTF?
20:12barra_libraryit might be worth fleshing out these points before we can agree upon one storyline proposal; basically: what kind of gameplay does these proposals lead to
20:12ZenbitzI am not saying that it SHOULD be totally random... just that it shouldn't be totally fixed either
20:13NineOfHeartsNo, of course not since games allow for people to choose instead of being narrated to.
20:13Zenbitzyeah, the other reason I started the Stateoftheworld stuff
20:13Gaspard_Well my thoght here would be you starting in a situation where you are pretty much alone - no close friends or family. That gives the player the freedom to Roleplay and think of a fictional past for the character on their own. I'd think most players wouldn't want their character end up in slavery digging holes in the ground for the rest of their days..
20:13NineOfHeartsWhich is why you escape quickly.
20:13NineOfHearts:x
20:13ZenbitzI wish I could draw a graph in IRC
20:14Gaspard_: D
20:14barra_librarydepends, I really like the idea of character background
20:14NineOfHeartsThe PC has already been in slavery for sometime.
20:14barra_librarythe advantage of this approach is that you could decide what background to choose
20:14Gaspard_then we could have that slave camp
20:14NineOfHeartsYou escape within I would say the first half hour of the game.
20:14barra_libraryhell, you could even start in a different place if you choose a different background :-)
20:14Zenbitzmy thought is that there are 6-8 different "starts" that all converge on a 1-2 (maybe 3) points.
20:14Gaspard_and in that camp you pick a sort of role - just a loose one because from there on your character develops on their own
20:14Zenbitzso the convergance point could be a slave camp.
20:15ZenbitzAnd actually... why does it have to be in the beginning!
20:15Gaspard_perhaps do the classic and let the player wake up in a bed in a medical tent
20:15barra_librarythis would be pretty interesting from my point of view, but it would mean that creating such a game would be also a bit more complex
20:15Zenbitzhow about, if you wander about the wilds of ELL you have some change of getting mugged and thrown in a slave labor camp.
20:16barra_libraryhmm that would be an option :-)
20:16Zenbitz(BTW I love it in games where you get all your stuff taken away and have to start over... but I am weirdd like that)
20:16Zenbitzthat was my first thought when I read the story... that it's a great story
20:16Zenbitzbut "confined" for a whole main story
20:17ZenbitzEleazzar would call it an episode.
20:17Zenbitzbut I guess we don't have to worry about that episode jive...
20:17Zenbitzwhich brings me to my next point, because techically, I am getting paid to be at work today...
20:17ZenbitzI don't think NOH/Matney story is at all incompatible with my "ice age
20:17Zenbitzthing
20:18ZenbitzI mean, the *important* bits of it.
20:18NineOfHeartsHold on a moment please.
20:18barra_libraryI think it's impossible to agree upon one storyline today anyway, maybe we should agree upon fleshing out what kind of gameplay the storyline creates and move on the presentation of zenbitz's storyline proposal?
20:18barra_library* what kind of gameplay the storylines create
20:18shevyhehe
20:18shevyand this is why i meant we should focus on the beginning foremost!
20:19Zenbitzok, mine is fast.
20:19Zenbitzcause there's no plot
20:20Zenbitzthe idea is that you are an adventurer, making your way in the (frozen) wasteland. It's cold and sure seems like it was colder than it was last year.
20:21ZenbitzPlayer starts out on the "nothern" front of the map (whatever slice we choose) because that is the coldest part
20:21Zenbitzbeginning of the game is almost tutorial like as the player learns to play the "survival" game, - fends off a wolf, maybe, finds some food, survives a nasty blizzard.
20:22ZenbitzGaspard fleshed out some ideas here:
20:22UH-Guard2Title: Alternative Story - Flee the North and Colonise the "South" ! (at forums.parpg.net)
20:23Zenbitzbut it's a *general* plot. The world is getting colder, so you have to go where it's warmer or you run right out of food. Other people are in the same boat (maybe literally.... maybe there are too many people for that boat that is crossing the skaggerak in the brief thaw)
20:23Zenbitzon the way, you encounter towns and places and have adventures (like the ELL/KSE one).
20:24ZenbitzMy original proposal just had the world slipping into a 10,000 year glaciation, and the player would (late game) learn this from some meterologist-types and undertake some futile quests to prevent it.
20:25ZenbitzIt seems, generally, that people didn't like that the quests were futile
20:25barra_libraryI see that readlock made some proposal for possible game endings
20:25Zenbitz(although I got a couple amens)
20:25barra_libraryI personally think that we should provide a good ending, even if it will be _really_ hard to get it
20:25ZenbitzI don't want to be a stickler for a depressing or mixed ending -- but "game of the year" FO3 has you..
20:25ZenbitzSPOILER
20:25barra_librarytalking the master in FO1 into suicide would be such an ending
20:25Zenbitzsacrifice yourself
20:26AlixaetusBonjour.
20:26barra_libraryit was pretty hard to impossible to get this ending in your first playthrough
20:26barra_libraryhola Alixaetus
20:26AlixaetusAlixe
20:26barra_librarybut it was possible :-)
20:26ZenbitzMy best case for the "happy ending" version would be sort of neutral, like you escape to africa
20:26Zenbitznot really knowing if africa was going to freeze over either
20:27barra_librarycouldn't there be a very hard to get "you save the world by stopping climate change" ending?
20:27barra_libraryyep, I like the uncertainity
20:27barra_libraryyou wouldn't know if you have saved the world, but for some years the climate was stable
20:27barra_libraryread: it's not getting much colder anymore
20:27ZenbitzI dunno... it sort of seems too "Total Recall" to me
20:28Zenbitzhahaa... funny idea
20:28Zenbitzwhat if you THOUGHT that you stopped climate change, but it turns out it was just naturally warming up like in NOHs plot!
20:28Zenbitzheheh
20:28Gaspard_I thought that the game wouldn't end with the conclusion of a comflict, be it ELL vs KSE or whoever. The game ends when the player makes the choice to either keep on going (South) or stay put at one place
20:29ZenbitzYou would be all "Yeah, I saved the world", and some smart dude would tell you "Eh, well, not so much really"
20:29barra_libraryjust for the reference, here are readlock's proposals for possible endings: http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=280.0
20:29UH-Guard2Title: [Proposal: main story arc] Based on zenbitz proposal (at forums.parpg.net)
20:30Gaspard_In what I outlined there's also the distinction between going solo, being a prick and going solo or helping others along the way (you'd start the game with a bunch of people looking at you with their puppy eyes)
20:30barra_libraryquote >>
20:30barra_library- walking south, alone or with some party; the ending is cold and nihilistic;
20:30barra_library- finding the "vault" party and joining them, without finding high tech; the ending slides are quite uncertain and, again, nihilistic;
20:30barra_library- finding the "vault" and bringing an energy source, guaranteeing survival of the small group; in-the-middle-ending;
20:30barra_library- additionally devising a way to put lots of carbon dioxide in the air, before the ice age starts, so there is hope the planet is livable within the next 1000 years; the ending is uncertain, but positive.
20:30AlixeDon't you think the game's scenery will be a bit too monotonous with a single climate? It pretty much limits the visuals to shades of blue.
20:31Gaspard_getting carbon dioxide in the air ? how about nuking a quasi-active volcano, that should do the trick. khm
20:31Zenbitzthe CO2 thing is just not working for me
20:31Gaspard_It would be crazy-snowy only in the north
20:31ZenbitzI mean, I get it, but the scope seems all out of wack and video gamey
20:31Gaspard_southern parts would be frosty and cold but still have evergreens and plantlife
20:31barra_libraryyou could change the details, but I like the number of different possible endings in general :-)
20:31Zenbitzyeah, I am fine with it.
20:32AlixePlantlife can't grow in permafrost?
20:32Gaspard_that's why I'd go for a more egotistical approach - get to a nice spot where to grow old with those nice people around me (or alone...)
20:32ZenbitzNOH now is your chance to tell me what's stupid about it!
20:33Gaspard_throughout the game if you help some people then they might ask you (with your hunting/farming expertise) to stay with them and thus effectively end the game
20:33barra_librarythe decision is up the player Gaspard_ :-) the discussion revolves around the question which options we should offer to the player
20:33ZenbitzI do like the vault entry ending as it's a nice "reverse homage" to fallout
20:33Zenbitzit woudl be funny if one of the endings was "you forgot critical water chip, and all die in 1 year"
20:34barra_libraryyep, good point :-) on the other side I'm maybe a bit too much of a Fallout maniac
20:34Gaspard_oh, I understood that, but to keep the player's actions and their consequences localized, not global
20:34NineOfHeartsWell, the world wouldn't get colder since a nuclear winter subsides in about 20 years after it begins.
20:34Gaspard_all these games about saving the world
20:34ZenbitzNOH - start here, how do ice ages occur?
20:34barra_librarythat's why I think that getting the "best" ending would need to be _really_ hard Gaspard_
20:34Gaspard_how about you finally just get your own hide to safety and perhaps manage to offer that very same thing to some people you meet on the way
20:34barra_librarybasically impossible at the first playthrough
20:35Zenbitzgaspard - that's why I like the ones where you THINK you are saving the world, but fail or nothing you do matters anyway
20:35AlixeZenibitz, why don't you let us know?
20:35Zenbitzno one knows.
20:35Gaspard_bleh :D sure, I'd avoid saving the world in any case, but I guess I could just refrain from doing that
20:35barra_librarypretty much like nobody really figured out that you could talk the master into suicide in Fallout 1 if you knew how to do it
20:35AlixeReally? According to what sources?
20:35Gaspard_my fear is that if there's a world-savign possibility then most of the story-driving force and effort will go into developing that
20:35AlixeYour knowledge in the field of biology?
20:36Zenbitzthere are some theories, mostly around reduced solar radiation
20:36ZenbitzI am pretty sure that there is a "snowball" or feed back effect where as more ice forms, more sunlight is reflected causing it to get colder
20:36AlixeIt's plausible for many things to cause at the very least a localized ice age. Especially in this part of the world. The pent up gases beneath the permafrost could dramatically change a climate.
20:36Zenbitzthe point is that ice ages occur through out history
20:36shevyi want a mammoth
20:37AlixeYes, and they also end.
20:37Zenbitzexactly - my point is that nuclear winter (as NOH correctly states) is thought to end after 20 years... but what if it coincided with some other climate effect
20:37barra_libraryas said Alixe (you were not here when we discussed the topic): realism is just one argument among several others for a certain storyline
20:37Zenbitzhow deep would a nuclear winter freeze have to be before there was some chance of triggering an ice age?
20:38ZenbitzI don't know - and I don't think anyone really knows
20:38Zenbitzbut if you point me to a source I'll read it.
20:38Gaspard_which happens to be the case in reality right now - the climate has shifted. our game would take plae right now but in that alternative universe where there was a WWIII
20:38AlixeBarra, but for the sake of interest, why would you limit yourself in terms of both artistic direction and scientific reasoning?
20:39AlixeYes, I see it's plausible under some circumstance, but what real benefits does it offer?
20:39Zenbitzthe "snowball" effect is where I am thinking nuclear winter -> triggers ice age
20:39Zenbitzalixe - plz clarify
20:39Gaspard_and that very shifting could be accelerated by the gigatonnes of bombs throwing all that debris into the atmosphere
20:39barra_libraryI like the idea of having snow, snow is not overused in any RPG that I know
20:39Zenbitzwhat is "it"
20:39barra_librarybesides Icewind Dale :-)
20:40barra_librarybut I haven't seen a PA snow game
20:40shevyPA`
20:40shevy?
20:40barra_librarypost-apoc
20:40AlixeSnow is a nice thing, but how can a player appreciate it when the background is snow, when the ground is ice and snow, when there are snow-covered shacks and wastes?
20:40barra_librarywe can spice up things a bit, I'm sure we can come up with something
20:40AlixeYou can't see snow against snow. And you won't enjoy the snow if you can't see contrasts.
20:41Zenbitzhence, seasons
20:41Gaspard_as I said earlier too - if it's not those 10m thick snowfields then there's stuff poking out of it
20:41Gaspard_stones
20:41barra_libraryit might not be entirely realistic but I'm more than willing to make the world a bit more colourful just for the sake of artistic freedom over total realism
20:41Gaspard_rocks
20:41NineOfHeartsWell, barra_library, that's why I thought that thawing was a perfect solution.
20:41Gaspard_plants
20:41Gaspard_buildings
20:41AlixeI think it would be much more ironic, if things began to warm up at the end of the twenty years.
20:41AlixeAnd for maybe a summer or two, things were warm, and /then/ a natural iceage set into plage.
20:41Alixeplace*
20:41AlixeBut it's a bleak and ugly setting if there's no strong variance.
20:41shevyare we making a lot of progress
20:41barra_libraryseasons might be pretty hard to implement from a number of needed assets point of view Zenbitz
20:42Zenbitzalix I think it is ironic... but only if the world starts as cold as NOH has it (10m ice sheets)
20:42barra_librarynot saying that it's impossible, but it will be quite some work
20:42Zenbitzbut I don't like it to start that cold
20:42barra_librarywouldn't it take quite long to have 10m of ice?
20:42barra_librarycould this even happen within our 20 year timerame?
20:42AlixeDepends on how dramatically the environment changes.
20:43AlixePerhaps the ice melts over a bit, and we see a nice landscap begin to emerge as the mountaintops, where the player believes it is the whole of the land.
20:43barra_librarymy proposal is: we should add some notes to the storyline proposals what kind of gameplay we would like to encourage with these proposals
20:44barra_librarybased on that, we might have an easier time agreeing upon one proposal later
20:44barra_libraryand I'll try to find a climatologist so we can get some 3rd party expert feedback
20:44barra_libraryif anyone is willing to summarize any points of discussion at the wiki, please go ahead
20:44AlixeOut of curiosity, Barra...
20:45barra_libraryI'll try to look into summarizing the rest that's left over tomorrow in the morning hours
20:45barra_libraryshoot Alixe
20:45AlixeWhy would there need to be 10 meters of ice?
20:45barra_libraryAFAIR I talked to you at the channel before?
20:45AlixeYes, you have.
20:45NineOfHeartsActually, Zenbitz, never once did I once say the world was covered in 10m of ice.
20:45barra_libraryno idea Alixe, it was one of the assumptions, but I guess we can easily change that in case it's entirely unrealistic and no storyline relies on that
20:46Zenbitzit's in your draft! but maybe you mean not "world" but map area?
20:46AlixeIt seems kind of... unrealistic for that much solid ice to exist over even a long span, unless it had previously been a lake.
20:46barra_librarynot sure who brought it up initially, but it does not matter, if we don't need it, we'll change it
20:46Zenbitzit's wrong wrong wrong
20:46barra_librarykeep it constructive please Zenbitz
20:46AlixeI think that mentality is important.
20:46Zenbitzsomeone brought it up once and it was immediatly rejected because it's silly
20:46Zenbitzand somehow got ressurrected
20:46Zenbitzto clarify
20:47barra_libraryas said: does not matter much: NOH's & Matney's storyline does not rely on that to work out
20:47Zenbitzsry
20:47barra_libraryso we can easily change that and could still adopt this storyline
20:47Zenbitzbut if they don't have it, then the thaw is not very dramatic
20:47AlixeNineOfHearts, Zenibitz, wait until we have selected the finer points of gameplay, and then alter your systems to best fit those scenarios.
20:47Zenbitzsure
20:47barra_librarymy suggestion was the other way round Alixe
20:47AlixeReally?
20:48barra_libraryboth camps should elaborate what kind of gameplay they would like to see in their story proposal
20:48barra_libraryand we can decide what kind of gameplay and storyline we would prefer as a team
20:48AlixeEven better.
20:48barra_libraryso not saying: let's agree on a gameplay and find a storyline that suits it but the other way round
20:48Zenbitzyay! we agree
20:49NineOfHeartsZenbitz, Matney wrote up the wiki. It's not something that I wrote in my draft.
20:49barra_librarywe're not blaming you NineOfHearts :-) it does not really matter anyway as your story not depend on it
20:50AlixeOn a side note, Barra; I'm the C/C++/Python programmer that's hanging around until you guys need direction in terms of engine customization.
20:50NineOfHeartsOh, sorry, I was just like "what?" and wanted to find out where it was written.
20:50barra_libraryI see Alixe
20:50barra_librarythere are a couple of new programmers involved now
20:50Zenbitzno problem... I didn't mean to slight you.
20:50AlixeSo, does that temporarily conclude the story meeting?
20:50barra_librarybut back to the point: thanks for taking part in the meeting, it was a pleasure :-)
20:51ZenbitzDave and I had an IRC converstation where he was like "
20:51Zenbitzoh, I thought 10m ice was set in stone already..."
20:51barra_libraryas said: I'll summarize the results tomorrow but I would be happy if anyone already adds some points to make it easier for me
20:51ZenbitzI'm done... I really have to get to work, it's lunch time.
20:51barra_librarybased on the summarized results, we should have a good idea for the next steps to tackle
20:52barra_libraryback to you Alixe
20:52ZenbitzI'll try to summarize... but someone should check me to make sure I am not too biased...:)
20:52barra_librarythere are a bunch of new programmers around and I think they would really appreciate your design experience in case you would like to help out
20:52barra_librarythere is currently a lot of refactoring going on and I'm pretty sure they appreciate every kind of advice as the current design seems a bit messy in places
20:52AlixeSure. Wherever I'm needed.
20:53barra_librarycheck out the threads at the programming board
20:53UH-Guard2Title: Class Design Draft (at forums.parpg.net)
20:53AlixeI'll take a look.
20:53UH-Guard2Title: Design Tasks (at forums.parpg.net)
20:53UH-Guard2Title: approaching objects (at forums.parpg.net)
20:54Gaspard_OK, I'm going to run, see you guys and gals
20:54barra_librarysorry for the mass of links, these are the most important topics
20:54barra_librarylater Gaspard_!
20:54NineOfHeartsBye Gaspard_ and Zenbitz!
20:54barra_libraryanyway, I really need to head out as well, my mates are already playing boardgames
20:54Gaspard_"Bye all !"
20:54NineOfHeartsAlright, well, I think that are making developments.
20:55NineOfHeartsThank you all for participating in the discussion today.
20:55barra_librarythanks to you as well :-) that was a pretty productive one IMO
20:55barra_librarygiven realistic expectations :-)
20:55barra_library"Verlassend"
20:57Zenbitzbarra... where do I need to summarize from?
20:57Zenbitzbrb getting a sammich
21:13Alixe (n=not@pool-71-177-218-112.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) left irc:
21:13Zenbitzback
21:39tieRead error: 60 (Operation timed out)
21:46barra_librarybarraAway
21:52barraAwaybbl, have fun :-)
21:52tie_ (n=mirc@77.70.63.134) left irc:
22:40LinDon|afkLinuxDonald
23:01DomtronHi
23:02LinuxDonaldLinDon|afk
23:03LinDon|afkLinuxDonald
23:08Prockhi
23:29NineOfHeartsRead error: 110 (Connection timed out)
23:53barraAwayRead error: 110 (Connection timed out)
00:00--- Sat Jul 11 2009